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1.10 or 1.8 PVP?

Discussion in 'PvP' started by Niiicck, Nov 6, 2016.

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1.10 or 1.8 PVP?

  1. 1.10

  2. 1.8

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  1. SuperDyl

    SuperDyl Active Meeper

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    The reason fighting was changed was complaints that the fighting was too simple and not very fun. Honestly, I don't know a different way to improve the fighting mechanics, but I think the changes were a definite help. The difference is between click click click click click click and learning how to target players at click at the right times.
     
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  2. CluelessKlutz

    CluelessKlutz King of the Nerds Staff Member Super Mod

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    This notion has already been disproved several times. Allow me to cite it from other threads.
    Strafing :
    -The W and S tap


    Enlighten yourself on the W and S tap, that revolutionizes the sprint key. Halting your sprint to deal more knockback, or moving backwards slightly to avoid a hit and moving inward.


    -A - D tap

    Couldn't really find a video on it since it's not used much, but it's basically alternating between A and D based on the location of your opponent. If your opponent is about strafe right, you strafe right to match with D, then alternate between A and D, it's hard to do and it's only useful in certain situations

    -Circle Strafing -

    Shoutout to my boy @Iatemyfriends for being stupid and always circle strafing me when I sucked at pvp. This usually only works on less-experienced players, but involved circling around your opponent with A and D, and sometimes mixed in W taps for full effect.

    -Prestrafe

    This one triggers me, @Cyclops the prestrafe loser. This one is honestly the most frustrating thing for me, even though I don't even pvp much anymore. This involves tricking your opponent by using A or D in order to get them to aim another direction. It's kind of hard to explain but it 's extremely useful and frightening if your opponent does it well


    Comboing :
    CLICK SPEED DOES NOT MATTER IN PVP LOL. I click 6 cps and got one of the top scores in the world. The faster click, the more chance you have of forcing your click packet to be answered first. However, after playing around with an autoclicker that clicked 1000 cps, I was still able to easily beat the person using it. Click speed has little to no impact on the game. Educate yourself before you try using that as an excuse why 1.9 is better. I'm not going to even going to bother trying to explain comboing to you if you think click speed determines how well you can combo


    Rod :

    You've got to be really stupid to think spamming a rod will help you. Not even going to bother explaining the logistics of it , but it's basically to temporarily stun your opponent

    Bow :

    Weapon? Well yeah, it's a weapon thanks for stating the obvious. But you probably don't know how to bow stun or anything like that, so for now, yeah it's a weapon

    More?

    Of course there's more. Minecraft combat is ever changing, and people are always looking for ways to beat tactics used by pros. Ever heard of what a Meta is? Probably not. Very long story short, it's about that

    Player A beats Player B
    Player B beats Player C
    Player C beats Player A

    However, player D, beats Players A,B, and C.

    Player D is the one that is the best at the game, and the more people that fight Player D, and learn his strategy, will then continue to beat Players A, B, and C who have mastered their techniques. It's extremely complicated to explain, and a good way to learn would be to watch this video if you want




    Also, next time you think minecraft is just spam clicking, watch this video. Just how Smash Bros Melee isn't just button smashing, Minecraft isn't just click spamming :)

    - @spartanfighter12

    What version pvp?
    I probably click slower than you js. Strategy =/ slow attack speed. On a technical standpoint : clicking faster only increases the chances of your click packet being received first but a 1ms difference is close to nothing, much less determine winning vs losing. I've gotten top scores in the world on famous pvp servers with atrociously slow click speed, and many others have to like Stheegala and Rain_Dynasty who have both been #1 during a pvp season and have click speeds less than 5 a second. If you were to take a click test right now you'd probably get about 5-6 a second. Most everyone would. That's what I get, too. The thing about jittering is that for a lot of people they can't aim without doing it, and the click speed comes as an added bonus. I'm tired of people thinking that all 1.8 is, is just click speed because that's far from true. And I can definitely compare Ssb because people who know nothing about it claim it's just button mashing. People who know nothing say minecraft is just click spamming. But feel free to play on the minority (probably sub 10%) who use 1.9 click mechanics. I'll stay on the one where people recognize the different skills involved from MC and aren't too ignorant to think minecraft pvp is simply click speed.

    Like I said, there's no increased strategy involved, all it does is lower the possible skill cap of the game. The best players will continue to be the best, however it's far easier to become good since most people can't handle a combo and blame it on their ping, their players ping, their click speed, or their players click speed. Humans by nature will blame out-of-control variables to excuse a loss. Though, if you truly believe click speed matters grab an Autoclicker with any click speed you want and I guarantee that you'll lose to me, or any other pvper who took the time to practice and become good, and not make silly posts on a towns server arguing that the easier style pvper is better simply because they're too lazy to learn the more complicated one. I've said it before and I'll say it again. All that's changed is click speed, not movement, so EVERY 1.7 aspect is the same except for the fact that it's slow and uninteresting.

    FSR (Frequent Stupid Responses)

    "Yeah because clicking fast is definitely interesting"

    No, the thousand different types of pvp strafe meta outway standing still waiting for your click timer to recharge

    "X happened before, people learned to play with change, pvp is no different"

    Yes because I'm sure there were hundreds of thousand players who had built a competitive community where thousands of dollars went into prizes and server hosting when it comes the introduction to the food bar, or something like that. I personally remember the introduction to the sprint key which ADDED to the pvp atmosphere instead of tore it down. You might say the minority of players who didn't use a mod like togglesprint to aid in their sprint weren't used to it, and sure they weren't but that kind of thing is a positive change, and the entire community was able to accept it since it was something they already used. How many servers used a plugin in 1.8 to decrease click speed? I can think of 1, and that was an RPG server, not a competitive pvp server - @legendcaleb

    What version pvp?
    Basically, these changes are good for single-player. Delayed hits, weaker armor, and such make PvE much more challanging, because everyone who fights mobs with maxed armor wins every time against massive hoards of mobs, so they nerfed your offense and defense to make it more "fair." Overall, 1.9+ combat mechanics are good . . . in single-player.

    For PvP, they are absolutely horrid. They have degenerated PvP into a slow sport of who can hit the other guy the soonest after the cooldown is done. Rods are utterly worthless, shields are useless for PvP, etc., etc. Again, this is much more geared towards PvE gameplay, as shields are useful against mobs. Their durability so futile they break faster than golden armor! As for blocking arrows, they only block them if you get shot from the front. In the PvP aspect, it just gives all power to the bow, because any kind of hand-to-hand combat is a dull game of prancing around the enemy swinging your weapon once every two seconds. Tipped arrows only add to bow superiority, because you can slow the enemy from long range, then just spam the bow.

    These changes to combat are designed to make Minecraft into a PvE game, because they presume players all want to work together on some stupid Realm. Look at the changes made in the last few months:
    1. Eula started being enforced, which had not been done before Microsoft bought Mojang
    2. The Minecraft.exe file was removed from their website, forcing people elsewhere to make new servers
    3. Development began on a C++ version of PC, which messes with redstone significantly, and makes all currently made plugins and mods useless.
    4. Combat mechanics were changed to suit a PvE environment, which discourages people from fighting each other. Therefore, this promotes Realms further as a way to "work with your friends!"
    - @CluelessKlutz
    What version pvp?
     
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  3. SuperDyl

    SuperDyl Active Meeper

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    Wow, that was a lot. I'm going to start with the talk about Super Smash, because that stuck with me. Super Smash is fun, and it is similar to 1.8 fighting mechanics because new players just spam while new ones learn better tricks. This doesn't mean that more mechanics can't be added to add more variety. As an example, who used blocking except for explosions? Shields make blocking useful, allowing for more parrying. Mojang even added a counter with axes to prevent shields being overpowered.

    Let's look at the timer. I must have been confusing before, but in 1.8, you still click the mouse super fast. There is a point where clicking more gets you nowhere, which is why these smaller strategies are so useful in PvP, but these same strategies can be utilized in 1.9 fighting. Fighting is harder because you need to make every click count. You also need to know when to click, which gives experienced players an edge, as they would know the times best.

    The issue with bows is interesting, but it could be pointed out that the few times I've seen bow usage in PvP is for slowing opponent, UHC, or minigames which give the bow more power. With the buffs available to the player, bows had little use in most PvP situations.

    Rod spamming usefulness as a stunning weapon are less, but now rods are more likely to actually hit the opponent.

    The issue with slowness isn't so bad. Look at Super Smash again. New players button mash a Tom with each other, which means more deaths quickly. Experienced players instead play with strategy which makes a longer game, but ever single move counts, raising the stakes and leaving excitement still.

    Shields are a favorite of mine. Most people don't use them and don't know what to do against them, but there are strategies which can definitely work when against someone shielding. You said yourself their durability is low, but most complain that they're over powered. Shields are a central part of fighting in 1.9, one that allows for new strategies to emerge.

    The last part is a rant about Mojang and Microsoft. I think that discussion should be somewhere else, just to be topical here.

    Instead, I want to speak up my opinion of why we even have this divide. It starts at the announcement of 1.9. People had been complaining that combat needed improvements. Mojang asked for suggestions, but no one spoke of ways to add to PvP. Once the update was released, PvP players noticed a difference: they couldn't get the same rush of killing people at the same rate as before. Servers panicked and quickly gave up on almost any implementation of 1.9 fighting, switching to the safer 1.8. In all honesty, with any Minecraft update which changes something big, there is always large opposition. People will make a big deal of things, and PvP was no exception. Now PvP can't adapt to the 1.9 fighting because it was given up on too fast, just because people didn't feel over powered enough and servers panicked.
     
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  4. CluelessKlutz

    CluelessKlutz King of the Nerds Staff Member Super Mod

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    Correct, mechanics can be added. For example, the sprint key was beloved by well over 95% of players, because it greatly enhanced the environment and made a more level playing field for players (as many would have a sprint toggle hack that couldn't really be proven as well). A far better thing to have done would be nerf armor as they did, add back block-hitting, reduce the timer to .1 second delay (just enough to disable auto-clickers. If you're getting more than 10 cps, it's not making a difference), and making mobs themselves stronger.
    Actually, many of these strategies do not exist in 1.9. The timer eliminates all combos, butterfly clicking, jitter clicking, advanced strafing, and the dozens of other tricks people have envisioned. "Making every click count" is a terrible idea, because most servers cannot detect a sword swing when you click only once, but your local client still renders the swing. It relies on a single packet being received be the server, versus several packets being received before. Picture it as sending a squadron of bombers to destroy a factory. Factors outside of the bombers (lag, faulty connection, server errors) can "shoot" it down, but sending many bombers means it is more likely to score a hit. However, you don't need to overkill it by sending hundreds of bombers, when a smaller squadron will do. Long story short, the target will be hit if you send multiple bombers.
    Quite the contrary, bows were already a practical weapon prior, and had numerous uses. I used to know a guy who, when fighting with his team, would target anyone with a bow just because he knew how good they could be.

    Actually, traditional Super Smash battles in competition levels have a set timer for which the match lasts. PvP simply goes until someone is dead. Super Smash battles (in competition) allow you to score points by killing the enemy for points, not a stock battle where it lasts as long as there's more than one player alive. The game is not longer at all.
    No, you're right that people don't often use shields, and you must remember they were redone slightly in 1.11 to block 100% of damage and take no durability damage to non-weapons. Still, my solution remains: bow spam. Rapid right-click with a bow will cripple a shield's durability. I know this from experience. People try to use a shield against me, and I literally just fire the bow as fast as possible until it breaks. They can't ever kill me because their sword is too slow to do any damage with 1.10+ regen.
    On the contrary, players had been complaining that armor was too strong in 1.8 versus 1.7. All major complaints about PvP were changes made with 1.8, because 1.7 is still considered to be the best for combat. I know of several places that did indeed test and stick with 1.9+ combat mechanics. Servers didn't panic at all, they had been testing these things since the snapshots released, and just didn't like it. Players said they missed the block-hit animation, they said they thought armor was too strong (It was 80% damage reduction for standard diamond armor in 1.8, not even including protection), and they said Gapple fights were too long.

    Yes, people are always going to complain about updates. People said pistons felt like modded, they said hoppers were too overpowered, they said new biomes didn't fit, and just about everything else. Know what the difference was? Now, we look back and enjoy those features after using them for quite some time. I can't imagine trying to build farms and such without hoppers, or life without pistons. More than a year later, though, over 75% of the Minecraft community (78% on this thread's poll) still don't like the new combat. More than a year later, Pocket and Console versions still do not have these same changes, despite getting nearly everything else (even Woodland mansions and llamas are in PE now, so they're essentially in 1.11 by now, without the combat changes from 1.9).

    People don't like it for many reasons, but the fact remains it is still despised, even though I haven't played 1.8 combat since August. Using me as an example, I know how to fight using it. I know how to take advantage of the changes (just ask people in KitPvP how it goes), but it still isn't as much fun as before.
     
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  5. PixelPizza

    PixelPizza Well-Known Meeper

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    My main is megaman and i flipping suck
     
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  6. Deljikho

    Deljikho Lazy Swami

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    Blocking helps neglect explosion damage?????? That's so awesome
     
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  7. CluelessKlutz

    CluelessKlutz King of the Nerds Staff Member Super Mod

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    Yep, blocking with a sword blocked explosion damage by 50%. It was the best to block creepers.
     
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  8. legendcaleb

    legendcaleb Popular Meeper

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    Oh. To be quite honest in my fair share of 1.9 it's so utterly atrocious. Minecraft is a limited game already with it only being 20 tps, and I'd rather not rely on servers' hardware to register my single well-timed click packet. Go to a competitive server and ask yourself if 1.7 pvp seriously is 'just click spamming'
     
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  9. PixelPizza

    PixelPizza Well-Known Meeper

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    Its simple. Just go into the files, and edit every weapon to have a extremely low attack cooldown.
     
  10. SuperDyl

    SuperDyl Active Meeper

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    In all honesty, I felt someone needed to defend the new fighting mechanics. I personally love them, but I've never been very good at PvP in general. I also know that most of the hate probably is similar to being updated in general, just like what you said with pistons and biomes. Thanks for mentioning that!
     
  11. MrFoxGuy

    MrFoxGuy Well-Known Meeper

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    I am good at 1.8 pvp and bad at 1.10 but i like 1.10 better because the only way you can get good at 1.8 is if you can get over 10 cps.
     

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