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Abortion

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Deinen, Apr 10, 2017.

  1. cnkropp

    cnkropp Well-Known Meeper

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    Except a fetus can't make decisions and and can't give consent.
    Do you ask permission from a sandwich before eating a sandwich?
    You don't because you can't because it doesn't have individual thoughts and it can't give consent.
    Huh?
    Sorry I didn't get that message from a statement saying for a mother to kill a 5 year old because she was tired of raising him/her.
     
  2. MeepLord27

    MeepLord27 Popular Meeper

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    Exactly, a passed out women can't give consent to sex, so its rape. A fetus can't give consent to have its life ended, so its murder.


    easy right?
    See sandwiches are this thing called food.
    Its a thing you eat.
    Theres also this thing called a baby.
    As much as many feminists would like, babies aren't supposed to be eaten.
     
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  3. Blue_Marlin

    Blue_Marlin Popular Meeper

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    All the more reason why you shouldn't have an abortion. If the baby can't say yes or no then you shouldn't kill it. The baby can't vote on dying or not.


    Is the Marijuana getting to ya?


    Sandwiches also don't have the ability to turn into a child.


    Liberal knowledge: Put someone in prison for neglecting their dog. Encourages "under age" or "poor" parents to kill their child.
     
  4. cnkropp

    cnkropp Well-Known Meeper

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    It can't vote because it isn't living IMO. This is where we are going to have to agree to disagree because we see how life starts differently.
    Of course not. It's just IMO a fetus with no heartbeat or brain activity is not alive.
    I don't even know where you get these assumptions.
    I don't smoke jackass.
     
  5. Blue_Marlin

    Blue_Marlin Popular Meeper

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    When does life start to you?


    So is it dead?


    It's pretty true tho


    hehehe you get offended so easily...
     
  6. MeepLord27

    MeepLord27 Popular Meeper

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    But you are still denying what would be alive future experiences.
     
  7. cnkropp

    cnkropp Well-Known Meeper

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    When the fetus has either a heartbeat or brain activity.
    No. Dead means something is no longer living therefore if something was never living in the first place it can't be dead
    I mean I have never heard of that assumption before. Can I get a source on this?
    It will be alive in future experiences, but when it's not living I feel that the women should be able to choose to get an abortion.

    I realize the sandwich analogy was unfair and I retract it.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2017
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  8. Blue_Marlin

    Blue_Marlin Popular Meeper

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    What about premature babies?


    fair enough


    I did not know assumptions or accusations had sources...


    I disagree, and thats fine
     
  9. cnkropp

    cnkropp Well-Known Meeper

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    Yes that's living.
    You said its true with no evidence. That's why I asked for a source.
     
  10. Killer2themx

    Killer2themx Popular Meeper

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    It's called adoption. That's after the mother wanted to raise the child for 5 years and realized how hard it is.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2017, Original Post Date: May 1, 2017 ---
    At the time that's not a person, it's a part of the woman. Her choice.
     
  11. Ranger0203

    Ranger0203 Popular Meeper

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    You're not a rapist if it's a false accusation... And I would expect that punishment would be reserved for cases where it is provably beyond any doubt... Unfortunately I think it's cruel and unusual, and someone has been listening to too much Ben Shapiro.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2017, Original Post Date: May 1, 2017 ---
    No, it isn't. It has a different blood type and different DNA, making it by all definitions a separate organism
    --- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2017 ---
    Lemme just put this out here:

    There is only one actual argument for abortion, and I will explain it. Before you get mad at me for putting words in your mouth, hear me out. Technically there are two arguments for abortion:

    1. The fetus is a person, but we can kill them anyway. <--- Practically nobody makes this argument
    2. The fetus is not a person, so we can kill it if the mother wants to.

    The first one is a poor argument, but feel free to make it if you want. The second is where things get juicy.

    As my main argument, I'd like to say that the fetus is at least human, as it has a blood type, DNA, etc. that are different from the mother's. As to whether it's a person or not, I say: just because someone is temporarily without consciousness does not mean they are not a person. If someone is in a persistent vegetative state or a coma, but doctors think they might recover, it is illegal to remove them from life support. Why? They aren't conscious. They don't know what's going on, and they aren't thinking. They are still human though, even if they aren't a person (having no identity whatsoever, aside from what others know about them). It's illegal because they might recover, thereby resume (become again) being a person (with thoughts, identity, etc.). So if it's illegal to kill a human on the off chance they might become a person, why isn't it illegal to kill a human who almost certainly will become a person?

    As my secondary 'argument': Take a 10 year old. Fred. A person, therefore un-abortable. move 1 second back in time. Still a person. One more second. Still a person. When does Fred cease to be a person? I seriously can't think of any practical answer other than conception, and even that doesn't fit perfectly.
     
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  12. metr0n0me

    metr0n0me Celebrity Meeper

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    Fair enough, but isn't that the crux of this debate though? Just different views on where life starts.
     
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  13. cnkropp

    cnkropp Well-Known Meeper

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    Yes it is the crux of the debate and since it's an opinion based debate it's mostly a "hey what do you think about this" rather than convincing someone to the other side. That is unless someone's view on abortion is derived from a flawed logic and assumptions, then there is something to debate about. That is mostly why I have stayed relatively quiet in this debate about the topic of abortion.

    I don't know if I have given my complete stance on abortion, just bits and pieces at this point. I think that until the fetus has a heartbeat or brain activity, the mother can get an abortion. However after that point I do classify that as a living organism, and it would be immoral to get an abortion.
     
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  14. Supreme_Overlord

    Supreme_Overlord Popular Meeper

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    So if a teenager that has their whole life ahead of them decides that they want to die because their girlfriend/boyfriend broke up with them, we should just let them kill themselves (or even help them kill themselves) because they're deciding to do so?
    --- Double Post Merged, May 2, 2017, Original Post Date: May 2, 2017 ---
    You know very well that liberals are not usually arguing that dogs are more important than children. Most of us that are making pro-choice arguments are doing so under the claim that fetuses are not children until at least some point into their development.
    I like that you brought up the issue of people who are in vegetative states and comas here. This is something that I've thought about before, especially in regard to its relation with the topic of abortion. While I'm sure that there are other people that have thought about this as well, it's not something that I've really seen brought up.

    Anyway, I think that the difference between fetuses and people in vegetative states and comas is that the latter two possess the parts of the brain that are necessary for sentience/consciousness. Fetuses are organisms that haven't yet developed what is needed for sentience/consciousness, whereas humans that are in vegetative states or comas essentially just have their consciousness/sentience "turned off."
    "Opinion" is a word that is often defined in a variety of ways. The term is often used in the same way as "subjective," which means that there is no right answer, but in the sense of philosophy (which is what a discussion like this is focused on), "opinion" is often used to refer to someone's stance on what the objective or correct answer to a question is. Using the term in the former sense, I do not think that this debate is based on opinion (it wouldn't be a "debate" if it were); however, using the term in the latter sense, all debates are based on opinions (unless one is arguing for something that they don't actually believe). The reason that this particular topic seems harder to discuss than others is that it is based on mostly on rationality and reasoning, rather than on empirical things.
     
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  15. cnkropp

    cnkropp Well-Known Meeper

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    You said this much better than I could have. This was what I was trying to say.
     
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  16. Blue_Marlin

    Blue_Marlin Popular Meeper

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    Its can't live on its own though? It would die if it wasn't hooked to the machines.


    Hypothetically,


    Certainly, thats why you don't see very many sources flying around.


    This opinion is better than some other peoples on here (COUGH COUGH COUGH) anyway, I disagree. However, we all have opinions. Opinions are like buttholes, everybody's got one. Just some stink more than others.


    Absolutely! Yes! If you want to talk YOUR life away, by all means do it! I could honestly careless. I think its sad people feel they need to kill themselves and ill do whatever I can to prevent it. However, I can't get mad at someone who kills themselves.


    Justice for Harambe!


    Homeless man has no house. He can't open the door to his home because he has no home.
    I have a house. I have a front door. However, my front door electrocutes me and would kill me if I opened the door.
    Therefore we are both homeless. However I have a house. It just doesnt allow me inside.
     
  17. cnkropp

    cnkropp Well-Known Meeper

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    Newborn babies also can't live on their own, and they are considered living. They also have brain activity and a heartbeat.
     
  18. MeepLord27

    MeepLord27 Popular Meeper

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    I'm talking about adults, sorry for the miscommunication.
     
  19. Deinen

    Deinen S'all Good Man

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    This simply isn't true. I was 16 when my now-wife was pregnant with our first, 17 when she was born. We're still married 13 years later with 3 more kids living a healthy and happy life.
     
  20. Erebus45

    Erebus45 Celebrity Meeper

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    Hehe I'm going to make up things that I don't know or have a way of proving! Oh, you don't like that? What an easily offended liberal snowflake you are. Careful not to melt!
     

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