1. Hi there Guest! You should join our Minecraft server @ meepcraft.com
  2. We also have a Discord server that you can join @ https://discord.gg/M53X5Zz
  3. Purchase a rank upgrade and get it instantly in-game! Upgrade Now

Is God real?

Discussion in 'Debates' started by n00bslayer_99, Nov 11, 2014.

  1. TheDebatheist

    TheDebatheist Popular Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    836
    Woahhh woah.

    I appreciate the defense. Honestly, I do. But let's keep it civil, lads.

    I agree, I don't think Jello is being too nice about this whole thing. But let's take the high road. We can disagree without punching down here.
     
    4726minecrafter, Qaztar and Toastie like this.
  2. Miku

    Miku One Hell of a Miku

    Offline
    Messages:
    663
    Likes Received:
    1,432
    I dont believe in a thing, Im not an athiest, Im just nothing. Religions to me are confusing and not 100% proven. Therefore opinions come into the hand mixed with facts.

    Religion also causes unnecessary arguments, that is a fact. I just dont like it
     
  3. TheDebatheist

    TheDebatheist Popular Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    836
    Ok, switch religion for ideology.

    So, you think Atheism is an ideology?

    Do you [think] 'Theism' is an ideology?

    If so, could you please list the ideas promoted in both?

    Afaik, Atheist+Theist are just shorthand for "I don't believe in a god" and "I believe in 1 or more gods".

    By all means disabuse me on the following notion, but I think the link that I cited earlier would be of great use here. Please give it a look if you can. https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq

    Simply because we have no idea how the universe began before the big bang, or if it was always existent. So the answer to "why" can be infinite. A god seems just as plausible as something just exploding and boom, universe.

    Just wanting to clarify here.

    You believe that the likelihood of the existence of a god is just an likely as the non-existence of a god, because:

    1) It seems plausible to you.
    2) We don't have perfect knowledge regarding the origins of the universe.

    If this is an accurate assessment of your views, could you explain how this isn't the reverse "Argument from Incredulity" fallacy, and the "Argument from Ignorance" fallacy?

    Surely, if you don't know, how can you assess the probability of something? And where humanity is ignorant? This doesn't mean that we're rationally justified to defend any claim until it's been disproved. The time to believe is when there is evidence to believe, right?

    To give an example, what if I were to claim that the existence of the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster' were just as likely as the existence of... a spider with two heads? We don't know whether either exists, so both claims are just as likely, is that correct?

    I lean towards agnostic, and while I have no belief in any particular God, I do not completely discount the notion.


    My own personal flavor of God is that God is everything, the entirety of all that exists as a single sum.

    So... you're an agnostic-Atheist, but *really* you're a Pantheist?

    Please give the link I've cited a quick look. I feel like it would be beneficial here.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 7, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 7, 2016 ---
    Sounds like an Atheist, to me.

    What does that word mean to you? As far as I know, most self-identifying Atheists (myself included) just describe themselves as "not believing in a god".
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
    4726minecrafter likes this.
  4. Miku

    Miku One Hell of a Miku

    Offline
    Messages:
    663
    Likes Received:
    1,432
    I dont know much about religion, all I know is that i was forced into it by my parents and now that im no longer forced, I dont like it because in my personal experiences with it, there have been nothing but arguments. I think you said something along the lines of "seeing is believing" in that case yes, i'd like to see it before I believe it. I just searched a few things and came up with a

    Scientific Panthiest, I guess thats what i am.
     
    TheDebatheist likes this.
  5. Qaztar

    Qaztar Popular Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,397
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    Hooray! I read the first page, then skipped to the last page, and the thread has not completely deteriorated into a flame war. Personally, I am an atheist. I get the need to have a religion, it just never really applied to me. The idea of God seems like a sort of filler to me. People are generally scared of the unknown. So they make these fillers to give some sort of reason, some basis. "We don't know, so God!" I think that should be changed to "We don't know, so lets figure it out!" That seems more productive.

    There's just too many facts that show that the Bible can't be 100% truth, and there's just too many facts that show that the theory of evolution is correct and that the Big Bang had to have happened.

    I have some friendly debates with some people at my middle school who don't believe in evolution, and the debates always end up with the question "What made the Big Bang?" And when I say that we have no idea, it blows those peoples minds. Humans as a species have a primal fear of the unknown. And the simple fact that we have absolutely no idea freaks everyone out.
     
    4726minecrafter likes this.
  6. CluelessKlutz

    CluelessKlutz King of the Nerds Staff Member Super Mod

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,413
    Likes Received:
    2,938
    It would seem there have been several instances where both sides have misunderstood the other. Reasonable, considering we hold to our values so fervently. The mistakes made regarding Christianity are

    1. Hell is an infinite punishment for a finite crime

    Allow me to quote a passage from the very book whose author was claimed to be "unforgivably ignorant," does this seem ignorant?
    "The Bible says that the Father is loving. The New Testament affirms the same about Jesus. But can they really be loving while at the same time sending people to Hell? After all, Jesus teaches more about Hell than anyone in the entire Bible. Doesn't that contradict his supposed gentle and compassionate character?"-Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ. This is the exact same question that has been proposed so many times in this and similar threads.
    Allow me to quote the passage that follows.
    "In posing this question to (Donald) Carson, I quotes the hard-edged words of agnostic Charles Templeton: 'How could a loving Heavenly Father create an endless hell and, over the centuries, consign millions of people to it because they do not or cannot accept certain religious beliefs?'
    That question, though treated for maximum impact, didn't raise Carson's ire. He began with a clarification. 'First of all,' he said, 'I'm not sure that God simply casts people into Hell because they don't accept certain beliefs.'
    He thought for a moment, then backed up to take a run at a more thorough answer by discussing a subject that many modern people consider a quaint anachronism: sin.
    'Picture God in the beginning of creation with a man and woman made in his image,' Carson said. 'They wake up in the morning and think about God. They love him truly. They delight to do what He wants; it's their whole pleasure. They're rightly related to Him and they're rightly related to each other. Then, with the entrance of sin and rebellion into the world, these image bearers begin to think they're at the center of the universe. Not literally, but that's the way they think. And that's the way we think too. All the things we call "'social pathologies"' - war, rape, bitterness, nurtured envies, secret jealousies, pride, inferiority complexes - are bound up in the first instance with the fact that we're not rightly related with God. The consequence is that people get hurt.
    From God's perspective, that is shockingly disgusting. So what should God do about it? If he says, "' Well, I don't give a rip,"' he's saying that evil doesn't matter to Him. It's a bit like saying, "'Oh yeah, the Holocaust - I don't care."' Wouldn't we be shocked if we thought God didn't have moral judgements on such matters? But in principle, if He's the sort of God who has moral judgements on those matters, he's got to have moral judgements on this huge matter of all these divine image bearers shaking their puny fists at his face and singing with Frank Sinatra
    , "'I did it my way."' That's the real nature of sin.
    Having said that, Hell is not a place where people are consigned because they were pretty good blokes but just didn't believe the right stuff. They're consigned there, first and foremost, because they defy their Maker and want to be at the center of the universe. Hell is not a place filled with people who have already repented, only God isn't good enough or gentle enough to let them out. It's filled with people who, for all eternity, still want to be at the center of the universe and who persist in their God-defying rebellion.
    What is God to do? If He says it doesn't matter to Him, God is no longer a God to be admired. He's either amoral or positively creepy. For Him to act in any other way in the face of such blatant defiance would be to reduce God himself.'
    I interjected, 'Yes, but what seems to bother people the most is the idea God will torment people for eternity. That seems vicious, doesn't it?'
    Carson replied, 'In the first place, the Bible says there are different degrees of punishment, so I'm not sure that it's the same level of intensity for all people
    ."
    Essentially, this passage would indicate those who do not follow Christ are given opportunities to change. It would seem one would be judged more on actions than beliefs. Faith in Christ is quite pointless, in my opinion, if you do not live it out. This does not mean "doing good" gets you into Heaven alone, but goes with belief in Christ.

    I will address further issues at a later date, due to a lack of time. In the meantime, I would like to ask a few questions for Atheists. These are not an attack on Atheism, but a request for additional knowledge. One must always examine evidence from a multitude of views to gain the complete picture.

    1. The Big Bang, though a credible theory, describes a transition of matter in a centralized location to across the universe. Where then, did the matter come from?
    2. Obviously, all Atheists believe the Bible is false, can you show me any archeological evidence against the New Testament?
    3. Isn't the argument "there is no God" also an https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
    since this falls under options 1-4 depending on your position?
    Again, I merely want to hear the opposition's stand on these three questions.
    I will attend to the other issues at a later date.
     
    TimtheFireLord and cooey like this.
  7. 4726minecrafter

    4726minecrafter Popular Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    823
    Believing in nothing is atheism. Atheism is the lack of belief in any religion
    One theory is that, in a sort of empty-multiverse sapce, there are infinite tiny universes constantly appearing and disappearing, like little bubbles in a sort of cosmic froth. Every once in a while, one of these universes, under just the right conditions, will expand into a full-sized universe by having it's own Big Bang, and become a whole new universe like ours did.
     
  8. WeAreNumberUno

    WeAreNumberUno Popular Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,956
    Likes Received:
    1,475
    Again, not our problem to show proof, you show archaeological proof that its real.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 8, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 8, 2016 ---
    while there are numerous theorys, (that im way too lazy to type here, ill post a link) obviously the can't prove the big bang, but there is a great deal of evidence supporting it, certainly more than there is supporting god.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 8, 2016 ---
    but that still means that when i die, i would be believing in god? right? If i die an athiest then i would go to hell? (just read the TL:DR sorry)
     
    4726minecrafter likes this.
  9. Miku

    Miku One Hell of a Miku

    Offline
    Messages:
    663
    Likes Received:
    1,432
    "Scientific Panthiest, I guess thats what i am."
     
  10. n00bslayer_99

    n00bslayer_99 i like kebab

    Offline
    Messages:
    3,481
    Likes Received:
    5,701
    And you're 13...
     
  11. Toastie

    Toastie Celebrity Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    6,977
    Likes Received:
    11,193
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
  12. TheDebatheist

    TheDebatheist Popular Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    836
    Allow me to quote a passage from the very book whose author was claimed to be "unforgivably ignorant," does this seem ignorant?

    Regarding apologetics. One can be ignorant about a particular topic, but that doesn't meant they're an ignorant person. Otherwise, we'd all be classified as ignorant.

    ......

    Essentially, this passage would indicate those who do not follow Christ are given opportunities to change. It would seem one would be judged more on actions than beliefs. Faith in Christ is quite pointless, in my opinion, if you do not live it out. This does not mean "doing good" gets you into Heaven alone, but goes with belief in Christ.


    I'd rather not tackle Christian apologetics yet. You've asked many questions thus far, while I'm still waiting on the 2 I asked earlier. Whether or not you care about the truth value of your beliefs, as well as your reasons as to why you believe in a god? I think those are the most important things to discuss here.

    To address the above simply, the assessment of God's character is much more than his decision to send particular people to Hell. Though, for what this is worth, if exists an is accurately described in the Bible? The Christian god is by definition immoral. Infinite punishment for a finite crime is by it's own definition, an immoral act.

    1. The Big Bang, though a credible theory, describes a transition of matter in a centralized location to across the universe. Where then, did the matter come from?

    We don't know.

    2. Obviously, all Atheists believe the Bible is false, can you show me any archeological evidence against the New Testament?

    Atheists don't typically claim that the entirety of the Bible's claims are false. The same obviously applies for the NT. There are some events described in the Bible that we know to be false, such as the flood. But I doubt you'll find many Atheists that claim all of it is untrue.

    [Not intended to be as confrontational as this will sound] Do you understand the 'Burden of Proof'? I've mentioned this a few times now, but it doesn't seem to be "sticking". Do you disagree with it? Do you not care for it?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

    "When two parties are in a discussion and one asserts a claim that the other disputes, the one who asserts has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim. An argument from ignorance occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proved false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proved true. This has the effect of shifting the burden of proof to the person criticizing the proposition."

    You're saying that some/most/all the claims in the Bible are true. Thus, the BoP falls on you to support these claims. Otherwise, without evidence+argument for either side, we're left in an agnostic position of 'unbelief'.

    3. Isn't the argument "there is no God" also an https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
    since this falls under options 1-4 depending on your position?


    I don't think it would be the AfI fallacy, but I share your concerns with that position, sure. Most Atheists (the overwhelming majority) are agnostic-Atheists. They don't believe, and they don't claim to know that no gods exist. Very rarely will you come across an Atheist that claims "there is no god/gods". In such a case, the BoP would be on them to support their claim. I do not hold this view, though this all depends on your definition of the word 'knowledge'.

    Again, I merely want to hear the opposition's stand on these three questions.

    Sure thing. Keep them coming!

    Though, I would really like to press on an answer the 2 key questions I've asked previously. Heck, let's push for 3.

    (1) Do you care whether or not your belief in a god is true?

    (2) What is the primary reason you believe in a god?

    (3a) If this reason were shown to be fallacious/incorrect, would you change your mind? (3b) If not, what would change your mind?[/QUOTE]
     
  13. Kakorrhaphio

    Kakorrhaphio Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    15
    That's ridiculous
     
    Toastie, Ranger0203 and Qaztar like this.
  14. Jellobean1

    Jellobean1 Active Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    123
    Its not my ways kakor, Its God's. His way. His plan for us. So don't ask me why. ._. But just so you can get this through your apparently large skull; God IS real and I think his plan of salvation is amazing; to be able to live again. And in the name of His son Jesus Christ, Amen.
     
  15. Toastie

    Toastie Celebrity Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    6,977
    Likes Received:
    11,193
    He was being sarcastic...
     
  16. The_Unkown675

    The_Unkown675 Popular Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,239
    Likes Received:
    692
    There is only one true supreme being...
    [​IMG]
    In joking...
     
  17. Jellobean1

    Jellobean1 Active Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    123
    :dead::facepalm::yawn: is that an alien or a spagetti monster?o_O
     
  18. The_Unkown675

    The_Unkown675 Popular Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,239
    Likes Received:
    692
     
  19. CanadianH0b0

    CanadianH0b0 Popular Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    171
    Me myself i believe in God as well as Jesus Christ and honestly I don't think ill ever change my views and I never would try to force someone else to believe in what I do .^_^ I say believe what you want to believe because in the end who knows who's right or who's wrong
     
    TimtheFireLord and Jellobean1 like this.
  20. WeAreNumberUno

    WeAreNumberUno Popular Meeper

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,956
    Likes Received:
    1,475
    OK, so you say that its gods plan, and you don't know why, so what reason could you possibly have for believing in him? you're like, "yah that god guy is pretty cool, I have no idea WTF all this stuff he does is for, but ya know, hes definitely real and stuff"

    also, the spaghetti monster is the religious icon for the mock-church the pastafarians, they are basically atheists who decided they wanted the same tax breaks and perks that religions get, so they made there church, you can become an ordained priest for 15 dollars.
     

Share This Page