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Universal Healthcare

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Daniel Thompson, Apr 12, 2017.

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Would Universal Health Care be helpful around the world?

  1. Yes, it is a vital thing to have.

    50.0%
  2. This could help, but would be a bad thing.

    15.0%
  3. No it will not work, I don't think it is.

    25.0%
  4. I'm not really sure about Universal Health Care.

    10.0%
  1. Blue_Marlin

    Blue_Marlin Popular Meeper

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    I didn't know I was taking orders from you now. Also, I hope you understand the Australian economy and and American economy can be different so just because you are taking an economics class in Australia doesn't make you an expert with American money.


    Yes! lets bring race into everything shall we!


    Ummmm, what?


    This is the debate section.


    You created this thread L O L


    No comment, just laughs :p haha thanks for the last part xD
    You are the one who went on a rampage about how America is the worst country ever and because America sucks so bad thats why we dont have world peace, which truly shows how stupid you are. You also thought America banned Muslims.... I don't say many people migrating to Australia, they all want to come to America because America is simply the best.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2017
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  2. Daniel Thompson

    Daniel Thompson Active Meeper

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    Yes enjoy it. We have Medicare for our public system (or our safety net) and private to help go through the system faster. Now we play the populate game.

    Well actually 40 million (13%) of the population in 2013 were foreign-born, and Australia 6 million (26.8%). So about 1 in 8 Americans are foreign-born and about 1 in 4 Australians are foreign-born

    I actually agree with Marlin on that statement. Race shouldn't be brought in everything, but Uno may have said it has a joke.

    Yes to have people talk about their countries and say have they think about Universal Health Care, not try to rip people's heads off.

    Yes, but we are NOT in Congress.

    I didn't order you to research, I recommended that you research what you are writing about to ensure you're not writing false facts or information.
     
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  3. Blue_Marlin

    Blue_Marlin Popular Meeper

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    I didn't say this. Marshy did, idk how you even quoted me on that lol


    You are absolutely wrong, 61 million legal immigrants live in America (roughly) and they say 11.5 million illegal but its at least a minimum of 20 million.


    Yay I love when people agree with me, even over something small! :p


    In all fairness, you went ham on America and said some pretty faulty stuff. You said earlier I should do my research, but more than half of what you said about America was false. I love that you want to learn about other countries but before basing your entire opinion on it, learn the facts. especially saying America created ISIS and is the reason we dont have world peace? Seriously, thats insane.


    You will see me in the American political field some day, ill be sure to yell "Blue_marlin" out loud so you allllllll know who I am <3


    You are the one who needs to do some research on America. again, you said America created ISIS.
     
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  4. Natsu

    Natsu Popular Meeper

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    Well first if anyone elects someone that thinks homosexuality is a choice for Congress then they must be insane.

    Some of the things that @Daniel Thompson said is true. For example, America supported the Islamist Mujahideen Resistance against the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan, and some members of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are former members of the Mujahideen.

    Also, the Iraq War was unnecessary and created too much conflict in the Middle East.

    I think both sides need to research because neither side is ready for a proper debate.
     
  5. Blue_Marlin

    Blue_Marlin Popular Meeper

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    @Natsu what faulty information have I said? I came to this thread and saw the nonsense lies @Daniel Thompson was saying about America. I simply corrected him.
     
  6. Natsu

    Natsu Popular Meeper

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    "I think we need more military spending, that way we don't have countries like North Korea (the peasant country they are) trying to pull some shadey crap, as well as some other countries"

    North Korea is not a peasant country, it is a country led by wealthy elites. The US has never used its military against North Korea after the Korean War. (Yes they do train with the South Korean Army in South Korea but the spending is minimal compared to spendings in Syria, for example.)

    "You also do not have a Constitution giving you the right to bare arms, so in America. The citizens will always have the right to have a gun"
    This has only protected Americans psychologically. Didn't you get the statistics that show how many mass shootings America has had compared to Australia? (Note: I'm not trying to prove that any country is great)

    I agree that America should keep their guns because it's harder to get rid of them, on a side note.

    You haven't proved a point that carryibg guns benefit citizens. (Like me ;))

    "Are you stupid"
    You are indeed the stupid one, not being able to argue back against a self known fact that most Muslim immigrants are good people. See the Donald Trump thread. No not all Muslims believe in extreme Sharia Law...

    I'm glad you haven't actually said too much crap this time but you still have said a considerable amount of faulty information.
     
  7. Blue_Marlin

    Blue_Marlin Popular Meeper

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    Ummm, did you just say America does not have a Constitution giving Americans the right to own a gun aka bare arms? Im gonna temporarily skip the other crap you said.
     
  8. Natsu

    Natsu Popular Meeper

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    No lol? I don't know where you got that from but what I've said are actual facts not crap.
     
  9. Blue_Marlin

    Blue_Marlin Popular Meeper

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    Okay maybe I'm misunderstanding what your trying to say. I wasn't even talking about safety, I'm just saying we have a Constitution that allows Americans to own a gun.
     
  10. Ranger0203

    Ranger0203 Popular Meeper

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    --- Double Post Merged, May 14, 2017, Original Post Date: May 14, 2017 ---
    Lol the percentages are irrelevant. If someone moved to Antarctica, they'd comprise 100% of the permanent population, but it doesn't mean that more people move to Antarctica than the U.S.

    40 million chose to move to the U.S. 6 million chose to move to Australia. That's over 600% more for the U.S.
     
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  11. MeepLord27

    MeepLord27 Well-Known Meeper

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    This is relevant again because bernie sanders is a whacko whackjob. The reason healthcare prices are so high in the first place is because of the evils of the IRS.
     
  12. Deinen

    Deinen S'all Good Man

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    Is this sarcasm, if not its absurd.
     
  13. MeepLord27

    MeepLord27 Well-Known Meeper

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    After world war 2, the evil IRS decided if employers sponsored healthcare they could use it as a tax deductible. The healthcare companies that previously were meeting the demand of individuals (so it had to be affordable because capitalism) switched to meeting the demand of companies buying insurance for there employers. The companies weren't particularly interested in keeping prices low because they could use it as a tax write off, so the insurance prices soared. People whose employers didn't buy them insurance were screwed because there weren't enough of them to form a market force. If the IRS wasn't stupid and evil then this wouldn't have happened. Discussion about healthcare should be centered around how we get the costs to be lower, not who should pay the costs. Also Bernie sanders is an evil communist.


    Accidents Of History Created U.S. Health System
     
  14. Deinen

    Deinen S'all Good Man

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    Sure I know all this, but how it came to be has little relevance to how we should fix it now.

    Universal healthcare brings down cost. Health care should not be ran by entities who are required to bring profits up every quarter for shareholder profit.

    Corporations are great as generating wealth, but the medical industry should not be driven by profit because that is at odds with making people healthy.

    Also Sanders is literally not a communist, why apply a label that factually doesn't apply?
     
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  15. MeepLord27

    MeepLord27 Well-Known Meeper

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    He is a socialist which is like 10x worse.


    It means if the healthcare industry collapses it will begin meeting the demand of individuals again. If its market is going to be individuals they will lower there prices because individuals can't pay the healthcare prices of today. There is a long term market solution for healthcare, so its unethical to pursue a long term government solution for health care.

    As long as we have a functioning health care system it shouldn't matter the motives behind it. Its deeply unethical for the government to do anything that it doesn't need too.
     
  16. Deinen

    Deinen S'all Good Man

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    Except this isn't any other industry where it's consumers can choose to boycott it, nor find the lowest price of competitors. When you have a costly and serious medical industry you cannot choose to not go (and die) and you don't have time to find the lowest price. Nor is it like any other industry because medical facilities, by law, must treat those that come in whether or not they have insurance or can pay for it. What happens in reality is they eat that cost and get it back by offsetting that loss in terms of charging everyone more. Another way the medical industry isn't a normal industry is because the biggest purchaser of it's services (medicaid/medicare) cannot, by law, negotiate for a lower price.

    So yes, if the medical industry was akin to every other industry in our capitalistic market, then perhaps, a market solution would emerge but since it's not - There is no solution to come from the market because it's really not part of it.

    But this isn't possible because the entire reason insurance works is because it works in a group setting. The group shares the burden of cost for the individual that is the entire premise of the system. An individual market ends up being all the healthy people don't have insurance and only the sick, which means those insurance corporations don't generate a profit. I'm not sure if you know how insurance was pre-ACA but premiums rose almost double every year. It was unsustainable then and in the long term it's not that sustainable now. Universal healthcare is still the only reasonable and logical solution to get everyone covered in the cheapest way possible. It literally brings the prices down for all of us and raises the services we all get.

    But clearly it does when the primary responsibility of a corporation is to generate profit. This is why our prices are so out of whack with the entire rest of the world, which drives millions into debt they cannot pay and go bankrupt, which makes the system more expensive for all of us.

    The issue with your ideology isn't that it's inherently wrong. - It's correct in an ideal world, but we don't live in an ideal world nor will we ever.
     
  17. MeepLord27

    MeepLord27 Well-Known Meeper

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    Our prices are so out of whack because of the IRS. Left to its own devices, the market would've continued meeting the demand of individual people and not meeting the demand of companies who's first concern (because of the IRS) is getting a massive tax write off.
    This is not why hospitals are so expensive. Prices are detached from reality because of employer sponsored insurance companies which came about because of the IRS. Before post-ww2 tax policy, healthcare and health insurance was working fine.


    Insurance exists to solve this problem. When you are injured you cannot make smart shopping decisions, but when you are buying insurance you can.

    Healthy people buy insurance in the current system, how can you say healthy people won't buy insurance? That's how they stay healthy.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 14, 2017 ---
    In comrade bernies health plan private insurers aren't even aloud to cover the same things as his bill. Its literally designed to give the government a complete monopoly on health care.
    Also even left wing single payed advocates know his plan is lunacy.
    Study: Bernie Sanders's single-payer plan is almost twice as expensive as he says
    "But he nonetheless concludes that single-payer at a national level would be significantly more expensive than the Sanders campaign believes, and would require workers to pay an additional 20 percent of their compensation in taxes. "

    "71 percent of total working households with private insurance would pay more.
    57 percent of households of workers in businesses with fewer than 50 employees would pay more.
    65 percent of working young adult (18 to 26) households would pay more.
    85 percent of working households on Medicaid would pay more.
    66 percent of working households on Medicare (a minority of Medicare recipients, most of whom are retired) would pay more."

    "Thorpe finds that Sanders's plan would cost an average of $2.47 trillion per year from 2017 to 2026, on top of existing federal spending on health care. Sanders's campaign's analysis, by contrast, estimated an average cost of $1.377 trillion."
     
  18. Deinen

    Deinen S'all Good Man

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    This article is from 2016 when he was campaigning. We'd have to compare that plan vs his now sponsored bill's plan. But even if it the same you leave out the fact while there is up to 20% tax increase - You no longer pay a insurance premium which spontaneously goes up a hefty amount per period. Health costs in general go down and much of the administration of the insurance companies get nice government jobs doing the same exact thing.
     
  19. MeepLord27

    MeepLord27 Well-Known Meeper

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    Read literally more than the title of the article. I addressed all of this with quotes from the economists study.
    "But he nonetheless concludes that single-payer at a national level would be significantly more expensive than the Sanders campaign believes, and would require workers to pay an additional 20 percent of their compensation in taxes. "
    "71 percent of total working households with private insurance would pay more.
    57 percent of households of workers in businesses with fewer than 50 employees would pay more.
    65 percent of working young adult (18 to 26) households would pay more.
    85 percent of working households on Medicaid would pay more.
    66 percent of working households on Medicare (a minority of Medicare recipients, most of whom are retired) would pay more."
    Even with a 20% tax increase we can't afford it. And the overwhelming majority of adults are left worse off by his plan. Health prices might go down but that is far outstripped by the new taxes.
    This is slightly detached from the issue of socialized healthcare in general. The economist who did this analysis is a big single payer fan But even he knows Bernie's plan is bad.
     

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